Rhode Island’s statewide primary election is almost here. At the top of the ticket, Governor Dan McKee is squaring off against other Democrats for the chance to run in the November general election. In Providence, the primary will determine who succeeds Jorge Elorza as the next mayor. I’m going one on one with Mayor Elorza to discuss the Rhode Island primary, unfinished business in Providence and Elorza’s future. Then, I’ll break down the primary election with fellow political reporters Ted Nesi and Patrick Anderson. And my colleague Ben Berke will discuss the Massachusetts primary held earlier this week. First, my conversation with Providence Mayor Jorge Elorza.
Ian Donnis: Providence Mayor Jorge Elorza. Welcome back to The Public’s Radio.
Jorge Elorza: Great to be here, Ian.
Donnis: Let’s start with the flash flood that caused some disturbances in Rhode Island this week, including some asphalt issues on part of Atwells Avenue. Cities like Providence have a lot of old infrastructure. We know these kinds of extreme weather events are becoming more common. Is the city’s infrastructure really prepared to respond to these kinds of events in the future?
Elorza: Yes, and no. You know, the reality is that our system just isn’t built to handle this amount of water. And the problem really wasn’t water getting into the system, the water was getting in, but there was just so much that was actually, you know, flowing out of it. So, you know, with these kinds of weather systems becoming more common and more intense, it is something that the city is going to have to contend with. You know, we’ve done a lot of work, work on this during my time, but, you know, whoever the next mayor is, and certainly the next mayor after that, unless things change with climate, we got some really serious challenges to confront.
Donnis: Let’s switch to the race for governor. You recently endorsed Helena Foulkes, she might have a little bit of momentum. She has been endorsed by the Boston Globe, had a good debate performance this week. But she had lagged behind in polls earlier in the campaign. Do you think she waited too long to take a more aggressive approach in her campaign?
Elorza: So let me just say this, so stepping back a second, Ian. You know, it really is amazing how many undecided voters there still are. It’s really incredible this race hasn’t been decided yet. And so people are just starting to tune in the last week and change. So that’s really surprising. But coming to Helena, the reason I’m supporting Helena is I’ve gotten to know her. And she’s an amazing candidate, she really is an incredible leader. And not just that, but what really spoke to me, among other things was her position on education. Having her say that she’s not even going to run for re-election unless schools improve, tells me that every day when she’s in office, she’s going to come in thinking about and trying to fix the situation in schools, not just here in Providence, but throughout the state. You know, we’ve as a state, if I may say, have grown complacent, and, frankly, tolerant of underperforming schools. Statewide, only about 30% of kids are reading at expectations, and about 20% are doing math at the level that should be expected. This is unacceptable. And we need someone coming in every day, and figuring out what we’re going to do about public schools throughout the state. So, you know, for all of those reasons, that’s why I support her and the more I’m seeing people meet her and get to know that there are concrete plans and a true vision. And she’s winning people over so she’s peeking at the right time
Donnis: To pick up on what you’re saying about the need to improve schools in Rhode Island. You’ve been in office since 2015. If you got a do over, is there anything you would do differently as far as trying to improve the schools in Providence?
Elorza: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And believe me, Ian, I still have three and a half months left. So I’m not done. And I’m still going to continue to push the envelope and do what I can on education. But it doesn’t sit well with me that, you know, here we are seven and a half years into my term. And frankly, I can’t say that the schools are any better than when I came in, and they’re not on track to get better going forward. So you know, what I have always done is I’ve always pushed the envelope. And I said this almost four years ago that we needed a transformational contract with the teachers. When we weren’t able to get that through negotiations, I brought the state in, had them take over the Providence schools because they had the power to reform that contract to get some transformational changes. Unfortunately, as we all know, that didn’t happen. But so… that doesn’t mean that we’ve thrown in the towel. I think that what we have to do is just think differently. If we can’t fix the system, we got to think about other alternatives out there. But one way or another, we have to ensure that we’re never complacent. And we never accept mediocrity or less than that in public schools. And that we always think creatively, right, there can be no sacred cows, when it comes to the alternatives that are on the table for public education. And so if I knew then, what I know now, I would have absolutely, absolutely taken even a more aggressive approach to education. And frankly, I don’t think anyone has taken a more aggressive approach towards education than I have during my time.
Donnis: What do you consider the most important changes for good or bad that have taken place in Providence during your almost two terms as mayor?
Elorza: Yeah, thank you for that question, Ian. You know, I think that really the most important thing is, you know, Providence is still undergoing this transition where, the mayor is not the head of the local political machine, right. It’s not the party boss. And so we’re still transitioning from a generation ago that being who the mayor is to today. The mayor is the executive, city executive. This is happening in city halls throughout the country. And what I take particular pride in, is investing in the systems and structures to professionalize the systems in City Hall, so that we just have a much better run administration today. And that allows us to do so much more. So I can go through the litany of things: more investment in the city than perhaps at any time, the safest summer and some of the safest times in the city at perhaps in history, at least our recorded history, you know, being able to deliver for our residents in ways that we just haven’t been able to in the past, we have the 311 system, and we’re supporting the arts, we’re supporting, you know, all the youth programs. All of this is made possible when you have good people in leadership positions, you trust them to do good work, you hold them accountable, and you let them execute. And that’s what we’ve been able to do.
Donnis: One of the most difficult issues facing Providence is the challenge of the city’s underfunded pension system, the city has only less than a quarter of the money to meet its longtime pension obligations. And those costs, consume more money each year, millions of dollars more. You forwarded a plan to use a pension obligation bond borrowing to try and address that. But higher interest rates kind of make that unlikely in the short term. If that approach is not feasible, what do you think is the best way forward for your successor in trying to tackle the pension problem?
Elorza: Yeah, there’s still some really significant financial challenges that the next mayor is going to face. You know, I’m proud that you know, we finished every year with a surplus, we have a rainy day fund, almost 30 million now, we were 20 million in the hole when I took office. So we had our credit rating upgraded. So, I feel good about what we’ve done financially and fiscally with the city. But yet, and still, we still have these challenges. We’re hoping that interest rates come down, and either myself or the next mayor can do the pension bond. If interest rates don’t allow for that, then there’s going to be some really tough decisions that the next mayor is going to have to make. To add to that, we’re also in litigation right now with the with RIDE, the Department of Education, in the amount of money that they’re looking to withhold from us for school payments each year. We dispute how much is actually owed or not. And so that’s another challenge that the next mayor is going to have to deal with. And so those financial issues are still there. The last point that I make, you know, this is something I’m really proud of, you know, I’m an accountant by training. You know, I’ve always been really, really, really, really into the numbers in the financials. And I feel really proud of the fact that every year that we could, we’ve lowered the residential homeowner tax rate. So that today, Providence has one of the lowest tax rates in the state, if you live in and own your home, to the extent that only 5% of communities throughout — or rather people in communities throughout the state pay a lower residential tax rate than residents here in Providence. So I’m really proud of that, you know, we’ve managed our finances, I think as well as anyone could, or could have hoped for, while at the same time alleviating as much of the burden as we can to the people who live here and have equity here.
Donnis: Your administration has led an effort for reparations for the effect of slavery and racism. The plan is to use $10 million in American Rescue Plan Act money for needs like housing, health care, education and financial literacy. $10 million is not chickenfeed, certainly, but is that really proportionate to the legacy of the hurt of slavery and racism in Providence?
Elorza: No, not by any means. And we’ve been explicit about that, from the very beginning. What we hope to do is to lay a foundation and create some best practices for what reparations can look like. And through this process, either encourage or inspire other entities, other institutions, or other levels of government to do this reparation work, as well. So the $10 million, that’s just a down payment. And that’s just a start. And I hope that this work continues. But I’ll also say, I think that the truly radical thing that we’ve done with reparations is that we’ve centered black voices, and given agency to the black community to allow them to determine how these investments are going to be made. Right, that’s another big part of it here. It’s not just, you know, their freedom being taken away during slavery, but that sense of agency being given that they are masters, and they determine their own destiny. And so I think that’s the radical thing that we’ve done here. These investments are being driven by black voices the way it should be,
Donnis: As a former and perhaps future law school professor, how do you look at the question of whether the size of the US Supreme Court should be expanded? Or would that just lead to ongoing gamesmanship between Democrats and Republicans?
Elorza: Well, thank you for asking that question. You know, I’ve followed this debate and my views on it have evolved a bit over time. I I used to think, you know, it’s good the way it is there’s still enough respect for the law and stare decisis. But I’ve realized that the Supreme Court is just another venue for the political parties to try to one up each other. And, you know, the the reform that most resonates with me is the one where Republicans get five picks or three picks, whatever, Democrats get the same number of picks, and then jointly those picks, select another three. You know, there have to be some structural ways to ensure that there’s impartiality and a lack of partisanship in these decisions. And hopefully through this, we can restore more faith in the in the Constitution and in the Supreme Court. Because what we’re seeing throughout the country is a crisis of confidence in our institutions. And that’s very dangerous. So hopefully, we can build up that institutional trust that the Supreme Court has.
Donnis: You’re set to leave office in January, after two terms as mayor of Providence term limits prevent you from seeking reelection, you decided not to run for governor. What does the future hold for Jorge Elorza?
Elorza: I really don’t know. You know, I could go back to teaching at the law school. And, you know, that’s appealing, because it gives me flexibility to do a lot of things and pursue different interests. But you know, I’m still — I feel young, I feel as though I have a lot of energy. And I’m ready to take on a new challenge and stretch myself in ways that I haven’t up to this point. So I’m still trying to figure out exactly what the next step is going to be. But I’m not going anywhere. And I’m going to be very active in what it is I do.
Donnis: Are we likely to see you write a book about your experiences as mayor?
Elorza: I don’t know if I’ll be writing a book. But there, there are issues that I really care about, you know, education is one of them. I really care about, you know, the role of mayors in our democracy. And, you know, I’m an evangelist on the power of mayors, coordinating with other mayors so that we’re driving a national agenda. You know, at the mayor level, this is the place in American government that it’s still about getting results, right. It’s not about winning an argument, that doesn’t help in our game. It’s about delivering for our constituents. And so while there’s gridlock and lack of progress in Washington, mayors are on the front lines getting stuff done every single day. We often say that in America, there are three main political parties. There are Republicans, there are Democrats, and there are mayors and mayors just get stuff done. So I want to help mayor’s continue to develop that national profile and continue to meet the needs of their city’s needs in this moment.
Donnis: Providence Mayor Jorge Elorza, thank you so much for joining us.
Elorza: My pleasure.
Rhode Islanders will finish voting in a primary election next Tuesday. There’s a lot on the line. Voters will decide a series of statewide races and settle legislative primaries that could have a significant impact at the Statehouse. Joining me now to unpack all this are two fellow political reporters, Ted Nesi from WPRI-TV, Channel 12 and Patrick Anderson from The Providence Journal.
Ian Donnis: Patrick, good to see you.
Patrick Anderson: Thank you Ian, good to see you.
Donnis: Ted, how’s it going?
Ted Nesi: Great to be back, Ian.
Donnis: Let’s dive right into the Democratic primary for governor. The most recent poll by WPRI was taken in early August. Governor McKee held a narrow lead over Nellie Gorbea at that point. Helena Foulkes had a good debate performance recently, she has been endorsed by the Boston Globe. Gorbea has had some publicity about voting issues and McKees kind of hanging back and trying to use the advantages of an incumbent. Ted, your most recent poll one of five hidden voters are undecided. What is your sense of how the undecided voters will break?
Nesi: Yeah, it’s tough, Ian, right with — that poll is to me pretty old now. It’s about a month old. And we know primaries change very fast at the last minute. From talking to the campaigns. It’s interesting, all three sound like they think they can win this thing on Tuesday night. That would be McKee, Gorbea and Foulkes. I think the big question right now is what is happening with Helena Foulkes? She’s had a good run. She was widely praised for her performance in the debate we had on Tuesday night on Channel 12. She got the Boston Globe endorsement this morning. Nellie Gorbea has had some stumbles as you pointed out, but she was only in the teens in our poll, could she make up that ground? Or also sometimes Ian briefly, I wonder if we’re looking at something like the 2010 election, and is Dan McKee Lincoln Chafee? Nellie Gorbea – Frank Caprio and Helena Foulkes – John Robitaille. We always say if John Robitaille had another week he’d be governor, but he didn’t have another week.
Donnis: Patrick, what is your read on the primary for governor?
Anderson: Yeah, that’s the dynamic: can Foulkes make up enough ground and I think everyone that I’m talking to feels like Dan McKee has a base that maybe around 30%. And the question is, where are the other votes for the other candidates coming from? And can he win with that low a percentage, that’s sort of what a lot of people are thinking might happen. And that Foulkes just might have too much ground to make up and might still be splitting too many votes with Nellie Gorbea. Some of the same voter profiles, maybe some of the more professional managerial class voters and that McKee: older voters, some of his Blackstone Valley base, might have enough to pull this out in a low turnout election.
Donnis: Well, let’s turn our attention to the big Democratic primary field in the second congressional district to fill the seat being vacated by 20 year Congressman Jim Langevin. I think all three of us would be surprised at this point, if Seth Magaziner, currently Rhode Island’s general treasurer, does not win the Democratic primary. Patrick, why have none of the other Democrats done more to really bring to the public an issue or to take a tougher stand against Magaziner?
Anderson: Well, part of that fits into the kind of weird dynamics we’ve seen in in every race where there hasn’t been a traditional back and forth divisive attempt to really pry apart issues and get at pressure points. And all of the candidates in most of the races, maybe treasurer is maybe the most, the exception, had been very positive, have agreed in the Democratic primary on almost all the issues and been loath to really draw stark differences with their opponents. And there just hasn’t been a lane that the other candidates challenging Magaziner have been able to feel they haven’t had a clear, either ideological or issue to really pry apart and hit him on or define themselves with voters that makes them stand apart and would be different from Seth Magaziner. At this point.
Donnis: Ted, why do you think this has been such a strange political year? Do you buy into it that after COVID, people just have their minds on other things? Or do you think it reflects a lack of confidence by the public in elected officials, and they’re just kind of tuning out?
Nesi: I kind of think there’s like a civic malaise right now in Rhode Island. I mean, all three of us can speak to the diminution in the amount of reporters that we have in the state and therefore the amount of election coverage we have. There were no calls for debates in the spring like there usually are. So we’ve only had the two televised gubernatorial debates late in the year. And I also think people are exhausted. I heard over and over from campaigns and I’d say Why aren’t you guys you know, throwing punches and stuff. They’d say people don’t want to hear about it. People don’t want to hear about it. And you also had you know Helena Foulkes again, for example, in our poll in August was still unknown to over half the Democratic primary electorate and her campaign feared if she was the first one to throw haymakers that’s how she’d be defined as the nasty punch throwing candidate and she couldn’t do it and then the other two McKee and Gorbea were almost in a standoff and then they finally started to mix it up recently.
Anderson: Just to follow up on Ted’s one thing that people have been talking about just this week is whether, whether Helena’s strategy of not going negative until so late is actually a brilliant rope a dope move and successfully allowed the other candidates to go negative and no negative punches really thrown at her until this week, or it she was just asleep at the wheel for the entire summer and is basically not gotten that connection with voters and made up enough ground and time
Nesi: Asleep at the wheel but burning so much money at the same time. It’s crazy.
Donnis: Like $4 million plus, right? In terms of the General Assembly, there could be a massive change in the State Senate if Lenny Cioe, a Rhode Island political cooperative candidate is successful in upstaging senate president Dominick Ruggerio. Other than that, it seems like the likely trend is the legislature will continue to move a little bit to the left. Would you agree, Patrick?
Anderson: Yeah, I think so. I mean, these are so hard to predict. And I think for the last several cycles, there’s been more upsets than we’ve expected going in. So I don’t really want to downplay how big the changes could be. I think they could be big, there could be a lot of upsets, but it’s really hard to predict where they are. A lot of the ones you think might be close end up not being and then vice versa. I think you will see more gains and some more longtime lawmakers go down next week.
Donnis: Kind of interesting how the energy is on the two ends of the spectrum progressives and Republicans, what’s your read on the legislative races?
Nesi: Yeah, like Patrick says, we’d be mugs if we tried to make any predictions that you could play back to us later Ian. But I do think you can never rule out– I mean, we think back to when Montalbano last years ago, and that blew up the Senate leadership dynamic. So I think there’s reason to watch it. It’s not just Donnie Ruggerio. Watching Mary Ellen Goodwin’s race, Charlene Lima, Anastasia Williams, some lawmakers who have been on there for a long, long time. We all know when a lawmaker with either a leadership post or a big presence loses it changes the dynamic, so fascinated to see which of those longtime incumbents figured it out and which got caught napping.
Donnis: We’ll get some answers on Tuesday. Thanks so much for joining me, politics and economics editor for WPRI-TV, Channel 12, Ted Nesi.
Nesi: Thanks Ian.
Donnis: And Statehouse reporter for the Providence Journal, Patrick Anderson.
Anderson: Thank you Ian.
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Our South Coast Bureau reporter Ben Berke had a late night Tuesday, covering the Massachusetts primary races. As he followed the returns in southeastern Massachusetts, he also talked to voters.
Ian Donnis: Ben, how’s it going?
Ben Berke: Ian, I’m a little sleepy after a night of covering elections, but I’m happy to be on your show.
Donnis: Let’s start with the Massachusetts race for governor former Republican State Representative Geoff Diehl, who had the personal endorsement of Donald Trump scored a pretty decisive victory in the GOP primary over a more moderate rival Chris Doughty. Diehl ran very strong in southeastern Massachusetts. What does that tell us about the current Republican Party in Massachusetts?
Berke: Well, it seems like the culture war that Republicans have been so successful at using in other parts of the country to motivate voters is finally taking hold in the local party in Massachusetts, Geoff Diehl basically won the primary by making himself a vector for the politics of Donald Trump. Trump called in to Diehl’s telephone rally on Monday to support him. Trump says Diehl’s the guy who’s going to fight the left wing and fight the Republicans In Name Only like Charlie Baker, who, despite not running for reelection is still one of the most popular governors in the country. You know, lining up behind Trump clearly worked well for Diehl in the Republican primary, but we’re going to have to see if that strategy can win over the independent voters and conservative Democrats that Charlie Baker and Mitt Romney have known how to target in past elections.
Donnis: Right and on the Democratic side, Attorney General Maura Healey basically cleared the field. She could potentially become the first woman ever elected governor of Massachusetts. Jane Swift, who became governor in 2001, was an Acting Governor. But let’s switch gears and talk about the race for Sheriff in Bristol County, Massachusetts. Republican Thomas Hodgson is among Donald Trump’s biggest supporters in Massachusetts and he’s had a lot of staying power in office since the 1990s. Attleboro Mayor Paul Heroux won a three-way Democratic primary. Why did Heroux win and how do you see him matching up against Sheriff Hodgson?
Berke: Well, as for why Heroux won, he was the only candidate in the Democratic primary who’s held elected office before. As you said, He’s the mayor of Attleboro. And he pulled in a lot of votes from the northern part of Bristol County last night where Attleboro is, but he also won New Bedford and some of the towns around it. Heroux has been able to point to years of experience working as an administrator in Massachusetts’ prison system. You know, he also studied prisons as a grad student, and he takes a pretty academic, data-driven approach to talking about what helps inmates start a healthy life in society after they’ve served time. The candidates running against Heroux, were both from the Fall River area. Nick Bernier is an attorney there. George McNeil is a retired police chief from Somerset. So I also — I have to wonder if those two candidates split the vote in that part of the county when they were running against Heroux. But now that Heroux has won the primary and he’s taking on Thomas Hodgson, this incumbent who’s been in office for 25 years, it’s a whole other kind of dynamic that Heroux’s going to have to figure out. When Hodgson took office back in 1997, his tough on crime, you know, ‘make jail so miserable that you don’t want to come back’ philosophy was part of the zeitgeist in both political parties. But in the past 10 years or more, a lot of people have reconsidered their views on how we ought to treat people who get into trouble with the law. It’s possible that attitudes have changed enough in Bristol County to create an opening for a Democrat to challenge Hodgson from the left. But there’s only one way to find out and that’s an election in November. All right.
Donnis: All right, Ben Berke, South Coast correspondent for The Public’s Radio. Thanks so much for joining us.
Berke: Thank you, Ian.
Thanks for listening. If you have a question or comment, drop us an email at news@ripr.org or connect with me on Twitter @IanDon. This has been a production of The Public’s Radio. Our producer is James Baumgartner. Our editor is Mareva Lindo. Our executive producer is Sally Eisele and our CEO and General Manager is Torey Matatia. I’m Ian Donnis and I’ll see you on the radio.